Auction Has Closed
The pledge card auction has closed. The winner was ‘rumpol1386′ (aka Graham from Upper Hutt) with a winning bid of $700.
Many thanks to all bidders and questioners. You’ve all helped make this auction into a phenomenon which has entertained thousands, generated publicity for the case in a number of newspapers, and spectacularly shown up Labour’s sour-faced, tight-lipped $30 attempt to copy this success.
October 20th, 2006 at 10:16 am
Congratulations at it going for so much! I am happy for you. And disturbed that someone would pay $700 for something they already paid for and is so worthless. At least it is going to a good cause, which may be why he payed so much for it. I hope so anyway otherwise I am bothered.
October 21st, 2006 at 11:07 am
Kane do you have any idea how much of your money is used like this every single day?
Worthless is very subjective but I think you’re over rating it.
Labour is a cash vortex. Large piles of you money go and and wind comes out.
October 21st, 2006 at 8:22 pm
Murray, I am quite aware of how much of money is wasted.
As for worth, well it has no intrinsic value. Certainly not on the scale of $700. However, helping fund Darnton’s case is worth way more than that.
October 21st, 2006 at 8:27 pm
Disturbed? Bothered?, I pay to the Government each and every day over twice this amount in tax dues. And I work long and hard to be in this position. (I run a very small business of only 5 people)
I do accept taxes, I love this welfare state, (but with the reservation that only unfortunates should recieve state assistance, and not those making a career out of it.)
Also I do not like to be taxed at the level that I am, buy having a gun held to my head, whilst I’m forced to watch it be thrown into the harbour before my eyes.
Highway robbers, of old, used to put their thieft to honourable use.
Thanks
October 22nd, 2006 at 2:36 pm
I disagree in total, rumpol. The “need” for a welfare estate exists only because there is a welfare state. If business were allowed to keep more of their own money instead of having it stolen by the state then they would be able to grow much faster and thus hire more staff, thus creating more jobs. They would also be able to afford to pay higher wages. In fact there would be so many extra jobs that almost no one that was willing to work would be unemployed. It’d also be easier for them to afford to create their own business and self-dependance. Under free market capitalism everyone benefits. Under statism only the parasites benefit.
Of course those unwilling to work would be in trouble but they don’t deserve anything. If they won’t look after themselves they can’t expect others to do that. But your post implies you agree with that much at least.
Besides most importantly is is our money that we earn. The government doesn’t earn that money. They steal it from us. That is what I hate most. They take our money off us without our consent to help out others. No one has the right to do that. If you choose to voluntarily use your hard earned money to support others that is your business. That’s what charities are for not government.
If you love that they steal my money and use it to help out others without asking me first then that says a lot about your character. Oh, and those are negative things by the way. As only someone of questionable morals would support theft.
October 22nd, 2006 at 6:34 pm
Maybe someone who knows a bit more about trademe can correct me, but it says here (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Antiques-collectables/Other/auction-74097890.htm) that member ‘nzlp’ — Labour — have not traded yet, and currently have a pledge card for sale.
Does this mean that ‘Philip’ of Porirua didn’t complete the trade? That, in fact, (as of this writing) even $30 was too much to help Labour?
October 22nd, 2006 at 9:47 pm
Hello Kane, All western countries need, and have some form of welfare, but never should more than 4 - 5% of population qualify. I’m a capatilist, albeit semi-benevolent, and I paid $700 in direct support for the Libertarianz.
You claim to have a measure of my morals and character simply by reading a 2 minute jot, Goodness me.
Graham
P.S. I love Weetbix also.
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:29 pm
Actually, rumpol, they only need welfare because of taxes. Without taxes welfare would not be necessary as I illustrated before. I don’t agree with even 4-5% of the population being on welfare as it is money they didn’t earn. No one has the right to unearned money. Besides as I said charities are the rightful helpers of the truly needy not the government.
And no you are not a a capitalist. You may support some capitalist ideas, but you are not one. Capitalism isn’t just a economic system, it is a political system. True capitalism involves no taxes, ie, a capitalist government and a capitalist economy, which no country in history has ever had. To have a capitalist economy but no capitalist government isn’t true capitalism. It is what is referred to as mixed capitalism and is what all Western countries have.
If you were to do a Robin Hood and take my money and give it to others who apparently “need it more” it’d rightly be labeled as theft. How’s it any different when the government do it? The cold and hard fact is that according to the definition of stealing that is what taxes are as they take our money without our permission, thus it is theft. Here is what my dictionary says about theft: “The act of stealing.” Here is what my dictionary says about stealing: “1. To take from another without permission or the right.” Without permission there can be no right. To take someone else’s money is never moral. It is always immoral. No matter your reasons theft is never justified as theft breaches one of our most fundamental rights: property rights. There is any justification to breach any one’s rights.
The measure of your morals I got comes from the fact that you support and love this theft, this rights violation. Oh, and I am talking of a tiny portion of your morals by the way, not the all of them. However, for a man to love and respect a violation of property rights, our second most fundamental of rights, tells you a lot about his characters and morals.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:26 pm
I like my wheetbix with marrmite on them.
October 23rd, 2006 at 7:10 pm
Mmm, I agree with that Murray. Very tasty. Lol, I am tempted now. Maybe I should have a proper dinner first though.
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:27 pm
Thanks for your detailed replys.
I can agree that taxation is theft (taking it at gun point, and throwing it in the harbour) but only when the amount taken is beyond the absolute bare minimum that is needed to provide a law and order infrastructure, public amenities (roads) and a few public servants.
Under the public servants banner falls some social responsibility (welfare).
I got off on the wrong foot with my first jottings, very badly written, but given that 4 – 5% of any population is by nature dull, uninitiated and perhaps impaired, there needs some support to allow them to live with the basic requirements of food and shelter. (not TV’s at our expense).
The public purse is Not for anyone capable of work and Not for paying people to have babies.
People are born of their parents genes so some never have a chance, to incarcerate them was the old way, but it took public purse to house and guard them.
The welfare I love is the one that keeps us from poverty like India, Ethiopia,……etc, Not the way we have it here in NZ. (Austria have got it right)
Charities work only if people are charitable.
I am a long time advocate of 0 % Personal Tax, 3% Company Tax and 20% GST. This offers some degree of choice, but it would provide employment for all. Alas alak left wing governments need to keep all they can on their ‘pay roll’.
I think you are off-the-scale Rightwing, I’m just near the edge.
Capitalism ! Point taken, I use the term within the achievable parameters.
Thanks and regards.
October 24th, 2006 at 6:30 am
Well, rumpol, I think any tax at all is theft. Even a 1% tax rate would be theft. They should use a pay-for-use system. Ie, if you want the roads you pay for it. If you want the police to risk their lives to protect you, you pay for it. If you don’t pay you get nothing. Not a you are forced to pay for everything, even things you don’t use system. Charities only working if people are charitable does not justify this invasion of property rights. There can never be any justification for rights violations. To violate rights is always immoral.
I never argued that those people don’t need support. I am saying they need voluntary support not forced support. The problem is that a welfare state is just that. I am forced to support these people without a choice. That is a Robin Hood like act. The Robin Hood stories are about an immoral person. He is no hero despite what the stories say. He violate property rights. he was a bandit, a medieval crime lord, not a hero.
The welfare state isn’t what keeps us away from the poverty of other countries? More evenly distributed capitalism. The Western world’s period of it’s least poverty and greatest technological started during the capitalist revolt of the 1800s. It is no coincidence that the old system of nobility rule being replaced with semi-capitalism created today, a time with little poverty in the Western world. That is what created the lack of poverty you speak of not the welfare state.
The welfare state creates reliance on itself and more poverty, not less. People that could be working under a truly capitalist system are forced to be on welfare receiving less money because there are less jobs available due to there being a welfare state.
I want 0% personal tax, 0% company tax, and 0% GST. As I said I want a pay only for the services you use system. Not a pay for all even ones you don’t use system.
No, I am not at all right-wing. I don’t like the typical line system. I like the diamond system used in The World’s Smallest Political Quiz (http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html). According to that I am far North, or North Pole as I like to call it. I scored 100% libertarian on it.
October 24th, 2006 at 8:23 am
Congratulations Bernard.
Another measure of the sucess of this campaign is the 46,446 views on the page during bidding process.
That is a significant level of interest in the dastardly deeds of Labour and your comments.
I am sre Trade Me would supply some data on how those statistics rank to other auctions.
SG
October 24th, 2006 at 8:28 pm
I’ve enjoyed your comments and retorts Kane, I am now all said and done.
Thanks sincerely,
Graham
October 26th, 2006 at 1:48 am
So, Kane, I trust you are off to live your words ?
NZ is hardly the capitalist / libertarian paddock you need to graze in.
There was a completely free market it existed many years ago, there was no welfare state, public infrastructure etc. People starved and lived in squallor, don’t believe the capitalist ideals. Record company profits have been a fact of life for a while now. My life is not improved, and neither is yours I suspect. The wealth has come directly from the poorest people in the world. The leisure time we were all promised doesn’t exist, companies have not used their increased wealth do to anything other than make a very few people richer. Remember 3% of the world’s population hold 80% of the wealth.
October 26th, 2006 at 3:12 am
Bernard,
Is the case still on? Are you able to go ahead or will you have to wait and see what the lawyers or the courts say?
November 1st, 2006 at 2:11 pm
I agree with zero personal tax and probably zero company tax..
It will not get much support from the tax industry though..
Or the insurance and banking industry..
With way less accountants and tax lawyers, who would fill all the glass towers ???
Turn them into apartments ??
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